Hillary's 'Right' to Continue

Nick Kristof is a brave reporter and a fine writer, but Melissa McEwen grabs him by his tin political ear and shakes him good and plenty:

Shorter Nicholas Kristof: Hillary's a bitch, and she only has a right to stay in the campaign if she behaves like a good girl. Also, the Clintons are an amorphous two-headed beast who are barely Democrats.

There is a fair argument to be made about the wisdom of a protracted primary battle if it continues to be as bloody as it has been (though I'm not sure how many people outside the blogosphere and punditry actually view it as all that bloody). But that argument can be made without pretending the Clinton campaign is the only one playing hardball, and it can be made without talking about the Clintons—who, despite one's opinion of them, have raised shitloads of cash and garnered lots of international goodwill on behalf of the Democratic Party—like they're unwelcome interlopers in the party, and it can most certainly be made without comments like: "If Mrs. Clinton can run a high-minded, civil campaign and rein in her proxies, then she has every right to continue through the next few primaries."

Why is it that Obama supporters in the media - even the ones we deeply admire - are so determined to ensure that Clinton supporters will never like their candidate, so determined to guarantee that many will stay home or defect in November? Lately, it seems almost like a mission.

Comments

[Bluegrass Poet]

It's almost like a "middle-class riot" or something, isn't it?

[vb]

I just read John Whitesides' article at Reuters.com describing how the Obama camp and its media groupies have been pressuring Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race. I hastened to Hillary's Web site and made a donation, and I'm urging all of her supporters to do the same. Hopefully, we can level the playing field for Hillary and also teach the Obamaphiles a much needed lesson in humility.

[vb]

I just read John Whitesides' article at Reuters.com describing how the Obama camp and its media groupies have been pressuring Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race. I hastened to Hillary's Web site and made a donation, and I'm urging all of her supporters to do the same. Hopefully, we can level the playing field for Hillary and also teach the Obamaphiles a much needed lesson in humility.

[zeke]

"Why is it that Obama supporters in the media - even the ones we deeply admire - are so determined to ensure that Clinton supporters will never like their candidate, so determined to guarantee that many will stay home or defect in November?"

Tom, are you writing this stuff with a straight face? I know you are a smart enough guy to differentiate between the intrinsic merits of a candidate and the extrinsic bullshit that emanates from his or her supporters, and I'm sure that you will cast your vote accordingly.

But in the meantime it seems that you are intent on glossing over Clinton's heavy-handed tactics, and accusing anyone with the temerity to point them out of being divisive.

Of course you fail to mention that recent polls (for what they're worth) show that many more Clinton voters than Obama voters are unlikely to support the other candidate should he/she be the eventual nominee. I don't think you can blame that on the press, or on the tenor of Obama's campaign. The fact is that Clinton is not only touting her superiority to Obama, but also incessantly and insidiously implying that McCain is more qualified to be president than Obama. Talk about divisiveness!

That said, I was glad to hear her state unequivocally today that despite the small differences between her and Obama, the differences between the two of them and McCain are large and crucial ones. I'm hoping this signals an end to the Tonya Harding phase of her campaign, but we'll see.

Finally, I get the sense that what makes Clinton supporters so angry about Obama is that he is ahead and likely to win the nomination, not that he is meanspirited or smug or inexperienced or infected by his pastor with the deadly Black Rage.

But the fact remains - he is ahead and likely to win the nomination. That being the case, it seems pointless to expend so much anger and energy berating the man and his supporters, and it is certainly counterproductive to our chances of taking the White House in November.

[Judith]

the only fact that remains is that a lot of people cant freakin add. *rolls eyes*

[bruce b.]

Tom, Kristof is a pompous pontificating ass who every now and then alights on an important human rights issue. Most of the time he is unbearable, unreadable, and often off the mark. He has little respect for the rest of the world: he thinks his own upper middle class American value system is the only one that applies.

I have enjoyed Joe Scarborough's frequent recent evisceration of Kristof on "Morning Joe." Scarborough is a conservative, but Kristof bugs me just as much as he bugs Scarborough.

On the other hand, Gail Collins is a welcome breath of fresh air on the Times Op-Ed page.

[TomC]

Zeke,

Didn't Obama say in Nevada that he will get Hillary's supporters but his supporters won't vote for her? And you think he is the unity candidate.

He explicitly appeals to Republicans to be a Democrat for a day to vote against Hillary. His campaign sends out a memo last fall attacking Indian Americans for being staunch Hillary supporters. One of his campaign aides sidles up to Marc Ambinder (again last fall) and asks him to look into Bill Clinton's private life. His campaign is attacking Hillary daily in unusually personal and demeaning terms. Obama has attacked Hillary's character, her electability, and Bill Clinton's presidency. This is from a guy who has zip, nada accomplishments in his state senate career. Last October in the Philadelphia debate who went negative first. It was Obama who went negative first. He attacked her for her answer on driver licenses to illegal immigrants yet gave the same answer in the next debate in Nevada. His campaign took an innocuous remark by Bill Clinton and twisted it to attack him as a 'McCarthyite' just last week. Obama stood on the stage saying nothing while his surrogate was doing the attacking. Did you listen to the conference call of David Plouffe his campiagn manager in which Plouffe was frothing in his mouth while attacking Hillary. Did you listen to the language and tone of that call? And according to you, Obama is running the most positive campaign.

The amount of sanctimony and hypocrisy that comes from Obama supporters is a bit much to take.

Has Obama ever said that he would campaign unreservedly for whomever the nominee is? No he hasn't but Hillary has.

Has Obama ever said that he wants to voters in Michigan and Florida to count and have a voice? No he hasn't but Hillary has.

Has Obama ever said to his supporters that they should not vote for McCain if he is not the nominee? No he hasn't but Hillary has.

[zeke]

Judith,

We'll see whose math skills are lacking soon enough.

[zeke]

Tom C.,

thanks for making my point for me. I had to go get a towel after reading your spittle-inflected screed.

My message to you is: go ahead and vent now if you must. I only hope your bile level has receded sufficiently by November that you can bring yourself to vote for Barack Obama instead of John McCain or Ralph Nader...

[TomC]

Charming Zeke! With such a charming invitation, how could I resist your kind offer to let me vote for Obama?
I can't wait to join such a classy group of supporters.

The other charming thing about you Zeke and your buddies is how you engage in ad hominem personal attacks just like your candidate and never engage the issues and answer the questions.

I say keep it up, you guys have done for Obama not even millions of dollars in negative ads against him could have done. Make sure to bring all your buddies to all the pro-Hillary blogs. That really ought to help Obama.

Here is some news for you: Obama isn't going to be the nominee. So get off your high horse and get ready to vote for Hillary in the fall.

[zeke]

Tom C.,

Sorry if you somehow construed my post as an ad hominem attack. Your writing style is, indeed, somewhat screed-like. And your breathless list of perceived Obama sins was, to my sensitive ear, spittle-inflected. I think most objective English teachers would agree with me, at least on the former point.

For your edification, I am willing to categorically state, as I have many times in the past, that I will vote for Clinton if she is the nominee. Will you pledge to vote for Obama in the fall if he is the nominee? Because if you won't, then you really don't deserve a place at the Democratic table.

Best, etc.

[TomC]

zeke,

I thank you for your English lesson and for deigning to 'edify' me. Your intellectual brilliance is simply dazzling and overpowering. Trust me, I haven't seen the likes of it in my entire life (thank god).

I pledge to you categorically that in the unlikely event Obama is the nominee that I will not vote for him. Why? Because he is simply unqualified to be president.

Now, the table is not yours to begin with. So it is not up to you to decide who is at the table, is it?

Try humility for a change, you might even like it. That might be hard being the supporter of a candidate who declared grandly that 'we are the change we are waiting for.'

I am still waiting to hear your answers to my questions on who went negative first.

[Andre]

Zeke said: "Clinton voters than Obama voters are unlikely to support the other candidate should he/she be the eventual nominee. I don't think you can blame that on the press, or on the tenor of Obama's campaign." Clearly, there are a variety of reasons Clinton supporters will not support an Obama nomination, however I feel quite comfortable in offering that the tenor of the character attacks against Hillary by Obama supporters, in conjunction with the media bias (against Hillary and for Obama...simply google the names and interestingly images for some startling results), peppered with the history of Republican attacks against Hillary, perhaps have created a perfect storm, so to speak, in the sense that those of us who support Hillary feel passionately united behind her campaign and feel a disturbing similarity among those factions attacking her.

Tom C, you nailed it. Obama is not qualified to be President. Well perhaps he is, if one considers the American history of preferring an endearing "Feel Good" speaker" to represent them. Clearly Obama is intelligent and I don't doubt liberal. He has charisma. Hillary is passionate, intelligent, intellectual, spent 8 years on the periphery in the White House, and I personally believe her nomination could inspire women all over the world to help alter the sexist stereotyping afflicting the world.

[Slappy]

TomC: Even if Obama is everything you say he is and Clinton is god's gift to the human race, you lose all respectability, authority, and you expose your self-righteousness with this singular statement: "I pledge to you categorically that in the unlikely event Obama is the nominee that I will not vote for him." Your non-vote is a vote for McCain. Period. I take your opinion about as seriously as a McCain supporter because that is EXACTL:Y what you become the moment if/when Obama wins nomination.

Arguing over who is more qualified or who went negative first. Un-fucking-believable. Pick your side if you wish. Just dont take down the ship with you because you don't like the captain. We are all in the same boat and I detest those punching holes in the hull out of spite. Four years of McCain is a FAR worse fate than Obama or Clinton, even if everything you say about the two is 100% true.

[blue girl]

Tom, I have no idea why the Obama supporters in the media are acting like such pompous brats. Joe Scarborough's really been giving it to them lately because of it. All this week, he's really been calling them out. It's been incredibly hard for me to keep a level head during all of this, that's for sure. And obviously for them, too. But, it's it's not *my* job to be a professional like it is theirs. They have been so disappointing and aggravating.

[tdraicer]

No one owns the Democratic nomination (or the White House). It isn't Hillary's fault that Obama has repeatedly failed to seal the deal, and Obama can't automatically count on Hillary voters in the fall: he has to actually win them over. So far, he isn't doing a very impressive job of it, and most of his online supporters aren't helping matters.

[zeke]

Tom C.,

Thank you for showing your true colors. No one who is serious about changing the course that Bush has steered us on for the last seven years need any longer pay you any mind.

But before I begin my own personal "Tom C. Ritual Shunning," I can't resist one more English lesson:

"We" is a collective pronoun. Therefore when Obama says "WE are the change WE are waiting for," he is making a profoundly inclusive statement. Only a paranoid and/or disingenuous person would construe such a statement to be self-aggrandizing.

As to your question as to who went negative first: I suppose in your bizarro world, Obama (or Dodd, or Biden, etc.) went negative as soon as they showed the temerity to challenge Clinton's ascendancy to the White House. Back here on Earth, the question really has next to zero relevance.

[Judith]

I am with you blue girl -

these obama boys ere are really silly and pompous. I think they believe that the guys in the media who are catering to their boyband rage actually care about them - they are being played for ratings. The media boys spin on a dime for ratings and the cash and they will leave our poor friends here in a puddle of tears renting their clothes and wondering how they got screwed...again.

The math is, my dear little d student zeke - Nobody goes anywhere without the superdelegates. And no matter how much you whine, stamp your tootsie wootsies and slam doors, they dont have to do anything but what THEY believe is right.

[Andre]

I just contributed again to Hillary's campaign. I was going to contribute over the next couple days, but I just heard Patrick Leahy suggests Hillary should drop out. I'm really stunned that in a race so close, these folks continue to try to force her out. Isn't it time Obama takes one for the team and drop out? Sound ridiculous..?

[zeke]

Judith,

I've really got nothing to whine about, have I? My candidates ahead, and I'll be fine if by some miracle his opponent ends up being the candidate. And by the way, can one actually stamp one's tootsie wootsies? Whatever.

Finally, I'm not slamming any doors, either. The nomination is not sewn up, and certainly the so-called super delegates will have their say. But they, too, seem to be breaking Obama's way. Bob Casey and Patrick Leahy being the latest two examples.

Now that Carville has designated Richardson as Judas, what role do you think he will come up with for Casey and Leahy? Perhaps they can portray Pilate and Herod in his little passion play.

[Judith]

skippy - are you skippy the bush kangeroo?

[Judith]

zeke - keep flinging dude...maybe you will run out of energy and poop out on the couch.

[zeke]

Judith,

As I used to tell my students when I was teaching - "that's MR. Dude to you."

It really doesn't take much energy to keep up my end of the argument when you and your compadres don't make any substantive or defensible points in your posts. But by all means, you keep flinging too...

[Tom K]

You always here that it's "Munich 1938" again, but if fact, it's usually Catalonia 1936 -- It all comes back to the Spanish Civil War.

1. HRC = Communist Party

2. BHO = anarchist/Poum

3. JMcC = Franco/falange

Infighting between 1 & 2 may well = victory for 3. But before we get there, and even more certainly, 1 will grind 2 down.

A plan generally beats a hope, however pedestrian the plan or exalted the hope. (In using those loaded adjectives, I mean only to say that, even assuming you see it that way, Obama loses.)

HRC is entitled to fight this out to the end -- if Obama wanted her out of the race, he should have knocked her out by winning Texas or Ohio. Maybe he could knock her out by winning PA, but he won't win it (and I'm not sure that would get her out anyway.)

The lady can take a punch, while Obama still seems a little put off by the fact that the victory train hasn't pulled into the station (HRC is annoyed that her inevitability got derailed, but seems to have moved past it better.)

Plus, this Wright stuff hurts Obama much, much more than, I think, is generally appreciated. (And much more than it should, in my view, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Ralph]

People! Calm the %*@# down!

Any Democrat who will not vote for the Democratic nominee in the Fall because they supported the other candidate, is NOT a true Democrat, and is SHOULD NOT be welcome in this or any other liberal, Democratic blog. Anyone who thinks another four years of Bush policies is better than either Democratic candidate is the ENEMY. Period. Please, leave this arena and go to some pro-GOP blog. I'm sure you will find enough Obama and Clinton bashing to soothe your soul.

Pathetic. Really, pathetic. If we don't stop this in-fighting, and McCain gets elected, I'm getting the *&$% out of this country for a while.

[Kevin K.]

I've never read Shakesville before and now I know why. Jeebus, Melissa could find sexism in a snowflake. That was quite possibly the most profoundly stupid and off-the-mark "Shorter" I've ever seen in the blogosphere.

[mrmobi]

Kristof should be ashamed of himself.

Pat Leahy was quite gracious in his own call for Hillary to end her campaign. I'm offended by the meanness that some Obama supporters have exhibited during this campaign, although I'll admit to having been quite sarcastic myself a few times. I also didn't like it when Obama said to Hillary, "you're likeable enough." It wasn't his best moment. The "periodically, when she's feeling down" statement was pretty dumb, too.

Personally, I have no confusion about who I will vote for in November. Hint: there will be a (D) after the name. Campaigns get nasty. Truth be told, I don't think this one has been particularly bad, considering the outstanding nature of both candidates and the closeness of the election itself.

I'm an Obama supporter, and I don't know any other Obama supporters (most of my friends) who wouldn't vote for Hillary if she were the nominee. Obama is a democrat, too, and it is a misrepresentation to say that his supporters will sit on their hands if he doesn't win. Most thinking people understand that this is a critical election.

I also don't agree that there is any particular hurry to resolve who the nominee will be. I'd personally like to see all the primary states vote (not including the ones that both candidates agreed would not be counted) and then let the delegates decide.

It would be foolish to underestimate John McCain in the general election. That said, he is a terribly flawed candidate. On economic issues, domestic and education policy, he's just awful, bankrupt of ideas except for tax cuts and more pre-emptive war/nation-building. Oh, and he wants to end Social Security, too. So this looks to be a solid year for Democrats to regain the Presidency and increase majorities in both houses of congress.

I remain inspired by what I saw at the end of the first debate where it was just Hillary and Obama. Two candidates, slugging it out in a substantive debate, both in full command of the facts. It made me proud to be American. We have an embarrassment of riches here folks. Personally, I'm going to continue to donate to my candidate, make some popcorn and enjoy watching the Republican Party become an afterthought in American politics. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.

[mrmobi]

Has Obama ever said that he wants to voters in Michigan and Florida to count and have a voice? No he hasn't but Hillary has.

You say this like it's something Hillary should be proud of. Both candidates agreed that the results of Florida and Michigan would not count. What part of basic fairness and playing by the rules do you not understand?

While I agree the primary system needs major repair, that won't be accomplished by showing states that the Democratic Party will cave whenever you break the rules. There is also the little problem that Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Does that sound fair to you?

Also, unless I missed something, the people of Florida and Michigan can still cast their votes in the, you know, actual election in November. Ironically, if those two states had left their primaries where they were, they probably would have played a bigger part in the primary than by moving them up. Finally, the Democrats of Florida and Michigan have wisely decided that no primary election is better than a rushed, flawed or disputed one.

[Ralph]

I have tried to be neutral to some degree, but blaming Obama for the mess in Michigan and Florida does nothing to sway me towards Hillary. They both agreed to the rules before the primaries, and now that Clinton is behind she wants a do-over. Well, it doesn't wash with anyone who is objective about this fight (which it seems, is very few).

[Thrasyboulos]

Of course Big Media want Clinton out of the way. Then they're done with Obama, he and his supporters will think Swiftboat is a pleasure cruiser in the Caribbean. What? you think they want Obama president. Lol! There's one born every minute.

My cat has a better chance of becoming president.

[Thrasyboulos]

Also, it was the lefty Kos Obamaites and the Precious media leg humpers who started the slime after New Hampshire, first "she stole the election", then it was New Hampshire racist voters who gave her the win..

The race baiting was perfected in South Carolina, again, with the assistance of the Precious media leg humpers.

[not melissa mcewan]

Shorter Melissa McEwan: I am a feminazi who will play the gender card whenever I can.

Fuck stupid fucking identity politics being played by idiots like Melissa McEwan. She is a complete fucktard. and her "shorter" is the same kind of outrageous smear that we get offended by when we hear Obama supporters criticizing us.

Shakespeare's sister is a complete waste of blog. The people that inhabit it engage primarily in hatespeech unencumbered by facts. It is rant.

Don't believe me, I don't give a shit.

Just consider this: if you heard an Obama supporter say something as outrageous as McEwan's statement how would you feel about it

Feminism is a good and decent movement.

Don't let feminazi bitches like McEwan shit all over it.

[MessyMarcy]

Hmmm. I'm detecting a new ploy by Obama supporters -- they've started representing themselves as Clinton supporters. A young man attempted to become a volunteer at a Hillary Clinton campaign office in Erie, Pa.; but after becoming suspicious of his behavior, workers did some checking and discovered that he was in fact an Obama supporter who had actually received funds for campaigning for Obama. The guy denied he was there for any nefarious purposes. Uh huh.

And how, you may ask, is this pertinent to this thread? We have before us a comment by "fuck melissa mcewan," containing exactly the usual obscene, bigoted drivel (usually gender and age based) that Obamabots frequently direct at Clinton supporters. But instead of the usual taunting remarks of "yeah, he's gonna be the next prez, deal with it, bitches," he actually has the gall to use the phrase "we get offended by when we hear Obama supporters criticizing us." We? Come on. You are no more a Clinton supporter than are Chris Matthews or Rev. Wright. Melissa McEwan has rightly pointed out yet another example of Clinton being held to a different standard -- you've got to be nice or we won't let you play -- which is all the more galling considering McPeak's recent unfortunate and unwarranted remarks made in the presence of Obama.

fmm, I don't know whether you are Michele O's brother, one of Zeke's other personalities, the young man in Erie, or just another garden variety fruitcake Obamabot; but you're fooling no one. You no more support Hillary Clinton than does Chris Matthews or Rev. Wright. I suppose the Obama camp has correctly deduced they have pissed off a frightenly large percentage of Dem voters and are trying to "bamboozle" them back into the fold for the GE; but, like the guy in Erie, you haven't done a very convincing job. If Obama can't win without pulling such desperate and infantile stunts, he should do the right thing for the party and drop out now. We don't need another four years of a dirty-trick playing incompetent in the White House.

[zeke]

Messy Marcy,

I do not want to be associated in any way with the remarks made by the subtly named "f### Melissa McEwan." In fact, I'm hurt that you would even imply that I might resort to such crudities in arguing my case for Obama.

I do not, it is true, support Hillary Clinton, whose lies (for such they are - deal with it) about her experiences in Tuzla have made her an even less tenable opponent for McCain than she was last week.

What I have said, and with no deceptive intent whatsoever, is that I will vote for Clinton if she is the nominee.

I'd like you to review my previous posts, and then apologize to me for even suggesting that I could have written that profanity-laced screed.

But if you are saying that you can't be "bamboozled" into voting for Obama in the general election, forget the apology. You are so far beyond the pale that I don't give a fig what you may think of me. You obviously think so little of your country and of your fellow citizens that you are willing to cut off OUR collective nose to spite YOUR individual face.

[MessyMarcy]

zeke, if you don't mind, or even if you do, I'll skip the part where I review your previous posts; but I will take you at your word that you are offended at being associated with the referenced comments and do hereby apologize to you.

However, I don't give a fig about your not giving a fig, etc. One thing for which I have always truly despised Republicans is their putting party above the welfare of the country. At the beginning of the election season, I was one of those who thought any of the Democratic candidates, including Obama (who was my second choice at that point) would make an excellent President (how could we lose?). Since then I have sadly concluded that if Obama is the nominee, I will not vote for him. I will not go into all the reasons -- I'm sure you would disagree with all of them -- but I have arrived at this conclusion in good faith and for what I consider good cause. I have voted for the Democratic nominee in every election since (and including) Carter. I do not have to like the candidate (I voted for Kerry); I simply have to believe they are the better of the two viable possibilities in the GE. Whether I will actually vote for McCain or just not vote for either should Obama be the nominee, I truly do not know at this point; but today if I absolutely had to choose between Obama and McCain, it would be McCain.

[Mutaman]

"Pat Leahy was quite gracious in his own call for Hillary to end her campaign"

Pat Leahy, someone who's always ready to make a stand when its not needed.

[zeke]

Marcy,

I hope there aren't too many so-called Democrats like you lurking out there. And I really hope WE don't wind up with the kind of government YOU deserve.

It's just too bad that you are evidently too old to be drafted, because it would only be fair that you reap what you have sown should McCain actually become president.

[Kevin K.]

Finally something Clinton and Obama supporters can agree on, the person who posted as "fuck melissa mcewan" is an insufferable douchebag.

Maybe there's hope for us after all.

p.s. MessyMarcy, on election day I would recommend that you crawl inside a refrigerator box and just scream all day. That helped me when they canceled The Partridge Family.

[Tom W.]

I think we can all agree that Melissa McEwen doesn't deserve the attack against her here - that said, I'm leaving it up - nothing reveals itself quite so clearly in words as hatred, and it's good for all of us to realize there are haters walking (and commenting) amongst us.

Now as to the straight face - yeah, it's totally straight. What's happening to Hillary Clinton is a bad thing for the Democratic Party, and not just because this humble blogger believes she'd make a better president than Obama. And, you know, the infighting will not end until there is a legitimate nominee, basically accepted by both sides - and that cannot happen with either of them destroyed politically. That's just a fact - if Hillary loses the way some Obama supporters (see Al Giordano, Markos, Andy Sullivan) want her to lose, then Obama and the Democrats will lose.

So if you're an Obama guy on this blog, start talking to your troops - the only way to get Hillary out of the race is to raise her up, not tear her down.

[Kevin K.]

Tom, as I've pointed out numerous times on this blog before, it's easy to play MadLibs with comments like yours:

"That's just a fact - if Obama loses the way some Hillary supporters (see Taylor Marsh, Jerome Armstrong, Larry Johnson) want her to lose, then Hillary and the Democrats will lose."

The first step is to admit that it's gotten ugly on both sides of the fence. Period. The they-started-it first childishness isn't helpful from either side. The second step is to convince supporters of both candidates not to pull the lever for McCain in November out of spite. The third step is to realize that time heals all wounds. Most of the folks who say they'll stay home on election day if their candidate doesn't get the nomination are just blowing off steam. I remember people being terrified in '04 that Dean supporters were going to stay home en masse out of frustration. It didn't happen then and it won't happen now.

[MessyMarcy]

zeke, we are all going to be reaping more than we want if either Obama or McCain is elected. I just disagree with your choice of who will be worse. Nothing you say will change my mind, but there may be others out there who might still be persuaded to vote for Obama if he is the nominee. You would be well served to read and take to heart the second paragraph of Tom W.'s 10:58 a.m. comment. If, on the other hand, you are one of the Obama supporters who truly believes all those Republican voters in red states will stay true to Obama and carry him to victory even if every one of the old white women who have been so vilified by him and his supporters does NOT vote for him, then good job, keep it up.

And Kevin, that's actually a good suggestion about the refrig. I may start sooner than election day.

[Judith]

kevin k - as a clinton supporter, I say you can try your equivalency game on somebody else. As a well educated woman with poor people roots and lotsa self earned money, I have watched the snot nosed wannabees diss us for months. I wont go to the barriers with people who have and continue to trash me. So if you are one of those bright not-so-young things who think you dont need us or that we are so stupid that we will follow you simply because we have no choice, you are wrong. There are a lot of us who will not lose personally if Mccain wins - we are Democrats because we care about doing the right thing and we have been doing it for years. But if you insult us and call us names after all that - well - I aint planning to hang out with ya.

If Obama people are supposedly so superior intellectually and in all other important and superior ways - why dont you try showing it for a change? Persuade us.

Tom W- brilliant comments above.

[Judith]

the post above, aside from the first sentence, was not personal to Kevin K as I have not experienced any particular insult from him specifically.

[Kevin K.]

Judith, *sigh*, it works both ways. I've been commended by both Digby and Jane Hamsher (among others) for spotlighting the ugliness of rightwing sites like Little Green Footballs when I ran my old blog, so I get enraged when I find out Taylor Marsh's denizens are linking to LGF hit pieces on Obama. I also get outraged when I see that No Quarter is actively promoting the YouTube videos of a loathsome racist. Will that stop me from voting for Hillary if she gets the nomination? No.

And for the record, I'm 46, I put myself through college, I'm doing quite well for myself these days and while a McCain presidency might not hurt me too much personally, as a Democrat I'm very much concerned how much it will hurt those less fortunate than me. And don't even get me started about the Supreme Court...

[Ralph DeMarco]

Yea, all you women who are rabid Clinton supporters who say they will not vote for Obama out of spite - do you really want McCain to pick the next few Supreme Court nominees? And don't fool yourselves, McCain will not be picking any moderates. Man, I just don't understand some of you people.

[zeke]

Judith,

No one is trying to persuade you to support Obama in the primary. If Clinton is your cup of tea, then by all means sip away. But if you, or Tom C. or Messy Marcy are not willing to vote for Obama in the general election, then you are not worthy of my time. Your selfishness and your petulance shine through in commments like this:

"There are a lot of us who will not lose personally if Mccain wins"

On behalf of the rest of us, I feel I must finally sink to the level of profanity and say, screw you, your "self-earned money," and the high horse you rode in on.

And with that, I am out of here. Thanks to Tom W. for the forum.

[Judith]

Kevin K - get your smelling sals cause NO it doesnt work both ways. There is no equivalency here in the now.

here is my history -
I dont hang out with people who call Bush Hitler.
I dont hang out with people who call the Israeli gov't akin to the SS

here is my now -

I dont hang out with people who say the US gov't created AIDs to kill Blacks
I dont hang out with people who say my friend who was murdered on 9/11 deserved it
I dont hang out with people who say the Democratic primary is akin to the Bataan Death March

Those people are embarrassments.

[Judith]

Ralph - who said anything about spite? I said I wont go to the barricades with the little snotnosed wannabees who insult me. And you need me. Oh boy do you need me.

Anyway, moot point. Clinton will win.

[Judith]

no effing kidding, zeke.

[not melissa mcewan]

ooh, how touching, let's all crowd around and give mcewan our support, just after she played her gender card.

Sorry guys, I comment frequently at many blogs, and I am a Clinton supporter.

What I am not is a fan of identity politics. And while you can cry your eyes out about how awful the women have it, and why it is okay for them to play the gender card, and identity politics, et. al., I will be supporting our true feminists: the Nadine Strossens the Wendy Kaminers the Jeralyn Merritts the women who go out and DO, and don't just go out and slime and the hide behind their skirts when people call them on it.

Fuck Melissa McEwan. You think that's harmful to say? I'll just point you to the bullshit and crap she spewed last year. She can dish it, but you don't like to see her get it back. She can claim Kristof is some sort of misgynist and that's jsut fine with you assholes, but if someone tells her to cram it, than that person is teh evil suck.

Fuck Melissa McEwan. You don't like it? Stop letting her play the gender card. It wasn't needed.

Her blog is almost a daily issuance of hate speech.

Fuck Melissa McEwan.

And if you want to insist that your democratic pro clinton dick is bigger than mine, it just goes to show you how your own beliefs keep you from listening to people who disagree with you.

My language is awful and Melissa McEwan is a saint? And you are a bunch of pearl clutchers as bad as any rightwing nut that gets upset with the language on the left.

Fuck Melissa McEWan. And fuck people that stand up for hate.

If you don't like Kristof or what he wrote there are a thousand ways to do a better job of saying that then some lazy claim he must be a misogynist.

Shorter Melissa McEwan: I love my new jackboots. They look grand on me.

[Judith]

hey fuck - you havent actually said anything to agree or disagree with other than fuck Melissa. Well, I have been to her blog and she is married to a totally cutie so I dont think you will get anywhere there. Maybe it is your insistance on talking about the size of your privates relative to strangers that makes me assume you are just another of one of those sadly unbestowed who need to pull some joy from posting some anonymous babypoop on somebody's nice blog. Kinda sad thing you needed to do at 2am, but maybe when you open the blinds and see the sunny day you will get out and spend the day at the park. Oh, and if you do dont do the measurement test - you will get beat up and then arrested. Here, you will just get laughed at.

[Judith]

btw, went to Melissa's last night - and she wonderful. Her post about taking one's boons and going home is, as Turkana says, an instant classic.

ps - I am not the retired lawyer from left coaster in case anyone wondered about that - there is another Judith I have only run into a few times but she gets cranky about her name - though I have used in online since 03

[not melissa mcewan]

Hey Judith,

Very modern mainstream feminist of you insisting that anyone that disagrees with you must have a small penis and worthy of laughter.

Very modern mainstream feminist of you to assume everyone is in the same timezone as you.

Very modern mainstream feminist of you to assume that anyone that says "fuck" just wants to have sex.

What a dipshit.

[Tom W.]

Look, my kids read this blog - so Jerry, no profane personal attacks, alright? A little cussin' is fine, but not in the "name" on a comment. It crosses the line. Besides, Liss is my friend. So cool out.

[Judith]

hey Tom W- my regrets for replying to the person - I did not know you knew who it was - I thought it was an anonymous whacko.

Jerry - your writing is embarrassingly awful and you are not worth my time. There must be a men's room wall somewhere just itching for your crayon. Go find one.

[Tom K]

Who in tarnation is "Jerry"?

Is that "Not Melissa McEwan"?

If so (or even if not), and what did he (or she) say that was profane (as opposed to obscene)?

There is a difference, you know, and to some people it is an important one. Even assuming that many in this "progressive" community may regard the moral assumptions underlying the distintion as outdated, it should still be recognized as significant to a wordsmith such as the esteemed Tom W. Eh?

[Molly]

WIN WITHOUT US.