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December 20, 2005

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» Spy Court Judge Quits In Protest Over Bush Domestic Spying from The Moderate Voice
The ripples over President George Bush's secret go-ahead for domestic spying, and his subsequent defense of it, have morphed into a bigger wave with the announcement that a federal spy court judge has quit in protest. [Read More]

Comments

"What about the metaphor? Any way to kill it?"

-- Joanie Caucus, Doonesbury

Tom:

Having read Dick Morris' column in today's NY Post just before this blog, I can only conclude that you would like to see the Brooklyn Bridge destroyed.

I trust the penumbral emanations of the Presidential War Power are strong enough to fight through the absence of a "war" (in the sense that term is used by the Constitution), and take appropriate pre-emptive action with respect to those, like yourself, who would subordinate the claimed needs of our leaders to the county's founding principles.

Good one Tom, your sarcasm barely shows! (And I also sense a clever allusion to the transit strike in your remarks).

This whole new attack on the president’s actions following 9/11 will ultimately backfire on those who are sponsoring this inquiry. I'm betting that most Americans would say that desperate times call for desperate measures. The president made a command decision in light of events and future presidents will now be apprehensive about following their instincts when decisiveness is what we needed and will need again no matter who’s in the White House.

Going down this road is a big, big mistake. Go ahead, hold your hearings. Roast Bush over a fire. When the Iranians have developed their bomb and are aiming it at us, I hope the president doesn’t look back on this period and wonder if he should delay finding out what the launch date is because he needs to muster a vote in congress first to conduct phone surveillance.

Geez…

But Tony, he already HAD the power - you're just giving me the talking points there - FISA is an incredibly powerful Federal surveillance law, indeed one that has made true libertarians (and I am not one) nervous for years.

You're creating a wildly false choice here: either non-judicial wiretapping of Americans or a nuke, express from Iran. C'mon!

because he needs to muster a vote in congress first to conduct phone surveillance

YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION! *THWACK!*

FISA allows the NSA to get a warrant up to 72 hours AFTER THE FACT. Nobody needs to ask congress for anything.

(You may now return to sewing the fur collar onto Bush's coronation robe.)

Tom K, we are not at war against terror. You cant go to war against a tactic. Why do you fall for that crap? The President cant just decide he wants to break the law and then say 'trust me'. Bullshit. President Bush has committed a felony - something that Bill Clinton was impeached for (lying under oath). And Nixon's impeachment charges included unauthorized wiretapping also. Those who defend Bush are fools and should be sent to a Constitutional law class. The Executive branch can wiretap and then get approval in 72 hours - which is almost always granted. The last time I checked the fourth amendment it read:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The President took an oath to protect and defend the Constution. He has violated that oath and should be punished. But these Republican children in the House have two standards of ethics, one for them, another for Dems.

I think the more apt metaphor is one of a ruptured aneurysm

One can only hope.

There is too much apology coming from pop-culture conservatives. These are the people to whom George F. Will is just a quaint old-timer. The business at hand is keep Arab savages out of our shopping malls. When was the last time a fancy-boy wordsmith in a bowtie foiled a terrorist attack?

Ralph:

I don't understand what is upsetting you. The 4th Am. (which is only 4th -- less important than the right to bear arms (2d) or not to have troops quartered in your house (3d)) has two basic elements: no unreasonable seach and seizure, and no warrant without probable cause.

Bush has assured us that what he is doing is not only reasonable, but necessary, so point 1 isn't at issue. And the complaint against him is that he conducted warrantless searches: thus, no warrants were issued, so the second point isn't at issue either.

Lighten up. There are people out there who want to do bad things, and if we don't trust our government to look out for us, who will we trust?

If some search were not conducted which, if conducted, would have prevented the entire world from being destroyed, wouldn't you agree that your niggling constitutional principles would look pretty silly in the dispersing planetary debris?

Remember the advise of the real Talking Heads (not those so-called con. law scholars popping up on cable nowadays): DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT.

BTW, I have little doubt that Tony is right about the popular reaction to the recent disclosures. If it ever hurts GWB, it will be only after he has been weakened by other things. Most people don't seem to mind warrantless searches too much if the person authorizing them is in a position of legitimate authority, and identifies some plausible (or plausible-sounding) justification, which isn't hard to do these days.

What the hell does popular reaction, or public opinion have to do with anything?! The Nazi party was popular in Germany back in the 30s - did that make them right? So what does that tell us? This Admin has spent the past four years trying to scare the crap out of Americans - and apparently it has worked well on some people. There are some people who have cooler heads and understand the real issues here. We have the 4th Amendment because we should NOT trust the Government when it comes to violating our rights. You want a King? Then say so.

"Yo Franklin, what have you created"

"A Republic, if you can keep it"

This off Drudge, indicating similar conduct during the Carter and Clinton administrations:

http://drudgereport.com/flash8.htm

This is not a repub./dem. issue, it is a statist/libertarian issue. That the Dems. and Repubs. agree that federal power can be expanded, at least when they are exercising it, is no surprise.

The House is still controlled by Republicans who will never hold this president to the same standards they held Clinton. Regarding the Drudge Report: I dont care if "Government officials" or "Government lawyers" think it's OK to spy on Americans for "foreign intelligence purposes". I don't care that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War either.

Nope, Drudge is WRONG about the Clinton thing (funny how Clinton still gets brought up -- Bush has been President for 5 years already). From Think Progress:

(What Clinton actually signed) requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.

The entire controversy about Bush’s program is that, for the first time ever, allows warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and other people inside of the United States. Clinton’s 1995 executive order did not authorize that.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/drudge-fact-check/

Bush signed illegal orders to spy on AMERICANS. Face facts.

Your posting has legs! I suspect many will read it, which is why I please offer this comment. FYI "balding security jock Jonathan Alter" lost his hair the hard way: he's been undergoing chemotherapy for several years to fight an aggressive cancer. He's also been loud and vocal about his support of stem cell research and wrote a column on this subject for Newsweek, which for many families (like mine) means an awful lot. Take all the pot shots you want on his reporting--that's fair and clearly you have the style to that well--but let's his bald head alone. It's earned a break.

On a related note, anyone watch Rome's first season?

Tom,

To be honest, I've been so busy at work I haven't really had much time to study the "talking Points" of the administration and missed the presidents address this weekend. I'm simply making a point based on the few headline articles I've read in the deadtree press.

For as much of a doofus this president can be and has been, his actions whether within the letter of the law or not, we're justly warranted and I believe that most would rather have the president act in such a way when catastrophy befalls us.

DS - whoops! I think i'll do a little editing (btw I am a little thin myself on top, so it wasn't the pure cheap shot it may have seemed to be).

The Catholic Workers are not "a Catholic workers' group." They are a network of lay workers who are committed to charity for the poor and homeless and to non-violence, civil disobedience, social justice, and pacifism. In November a number of Catholic Worker members were arrested for helping lead a non-violent protest against the School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia, where military officers from Latin America are trained in interrogation techniques, among other things.

No surprise that the administration views them as an enemy.

I don't understand what is upsetting you. The 4th Am. (which is only 4th -- less important than the right to bear arms (2d) or not to have troops quartered in your house (3d))....

Dude, they're not in order of importance.

Tom K. -

Bush can "assure" us all he wants - he assured us in 2004 that no wiretapping would be done without a warrant AFTER he gave the order to snoop on US citizens. And his track record, ain't so great quite frankly. He's a fucking L-I-A-R. Period.

Bush is also not the final arbiter of what is "reasonable" - that is for a judge to determine. What we know now is that Bush relied on advice of his political appointees against the advice of career lawyers and experts on the subject. Do you think he bothered to read the 4th amendment or the authorization passed by Congress?

This administration has proven time and again with both their words and actions that they are only interested in looking out for themselves.

And those "niggling constitutional principles" you refer to are what this great country was founded on. Might want to read the Federalist Papers.

Since the FISA act allows for wiretaps without a warrant for up to 72 hours, it seems to me that the only rationale for circumventing the court is to enable spying on enemies of the administration, rather than terrorists. If the target was legitimate, the court would almost certainly give approval and issue a warrant. If Bush wants to spy on lawful but dissenting organizations, he would need to bypass FISA, which is exactly what he has been doing. We need to know exactly who and what have been targets of this surveillance...

Hey everyone, don't let Tom K. snow ya! He's just drawing ya'll out - I know TK and he's a stone cold libertarian (though with a practical streak) who is as disgusted by this as anyone posting here...but he clearly enjoys playing Cheney's Advocate (as it's coming to be known) in the flow of the discussion....don't get suckered!

Tom:

I thought my invocation of the "dispersing planetary debris" would tip 'em off, but I guess the political rhetoric is so extreme these days (on both sides), it's tough to parody.

Ken R: I watched Rome, and liked it despite its many absurdities. It all ties together as, if I'm not mistaken, season MMLXVII brings the direct decendents of Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo to lower Manhattan on Sept. 11 . . .

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